Curse

Bergrom · Aug 29, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

For a group that tends to be very critical when the mood strikes them, very few of the posters here seem to be critical thinkers. You read, you post. No reflection is given at all nor any attempts made to discern whether making a response is even a good idea.

Sarcasm and irony are evidently lost arts. Why this baffles me, I am not certain. I guess its not surprising when many of the players hail from a country where 1/5th of the population can't point to their nation on a map. If Ms. Teen South Carolina posted her answer here, I think some idiot would attempt to demonstrate how she is wrong and that the real answer is something else!

I can't speak for Engel. He may really mean most of his postings. Some of the others are clearly sarcasm and you would have to be functionally illiterate not to pick up on their tenor (scared of snowflakes, for God's sake). I, on the other hand, may have been too subtle (but see Aleta and AlienFromBeyond).

To everyone who took seriously anything I have written in this thread prior to this post, see Bill Engvall. He has a sign for you.

Ringsgold, Aleta and AlienFromBeyond get full marks. Zanntos, you get docked a point or two but show promise. At least you thought about my motivations when you read my comments.

I don't normally engage in this kind of foolishness but some of you people make it WAY too easy and fun. I have laughed often and hard over the past 24 hours and could let it go another 48 hours. But there seems to be little hope that it will get better so I am pulling the plug on my experiment in subtlety.

For the record, I have eight L20 toons, have completed all three games, and had no difficulty in exploring the addition found in GWEN. I do NOT have 15K armor as I hate farming too bad to earn it and buying gold is a EULA violation. I imagine the right build could solo in GWEN but I ventured forth with my trusty heroes and some henchmen.

The real sad thing (other than my sick joy in yanking your chains a little) is that most of the posters here very likely know a great deal more about the game than I do even after almost two years of playing GW. If I were a newbie, it's not the sarcastic comments from idiots like me that would drive me from forum activity and the opportunity to learn a lot. It's the holier than thou attitude from most of the posters that screams "you're a moron if you disagree with my tactics/build/nerf suggestion/etc." It's the lack of patience for people who need longer to figure things out (although there are exceptions such as Olmarranikasali). It's that this is all about a game. A fun game to be sure but it remains just a game.

<sigh> Now look what y'all have done. I launched into a diatribe. Now I am like the rest of you. Well, there is nothing for it but to go get my sign from Engvall!

TabascoSauce · Aug 29, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Uh, who are you again?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

iridescentfyre · Aug 29, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

We shall nerf nothing. What a retarded thread.

Judging by how efficiently Destroyers seemed to rape spell casters, I can hardly agree that having 4-5 Fire elementalists with limited defense in your group is overpowered ...or even smart.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 29, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

Judging by how efficiently Destroyers seemed to rape spell casters, I can hardly agree that having 4-5 Fire elementalists with limited defense in your group is overpowered ...or even smart.

Meh, I'll adapt; throw Wards on a few people, and maybe lay down a spirit of Winter.
Eles rock PvE hard ^_^

Dr Strangelove · Aug 29, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

It's really easy calculus to me. If you have a problem with Finish Him, then you have the option of not using it. The difficulty level of the game, if you are very good at it, is entirely in your purview to decide. If you min/max optimize, as any good pen and paper RPG'er is familiar with, then you can maximize your power. That makes the game easier by definition. Alternately, you can play without certain skills, armor, etc, making the game harder.

The "if you think it's overpowered, then don't use it" arguement bothers me. Most players good enough to steamroll everything in PvE are perfectionists. They got that way by continually optimizing builds and strategies. It's like saying "If you're killing every team you play in soccer, break your shin before the game". You certainly could break your shin or take a crappy skillbar, but it would be a heck of a lot more fun if there was a challenge that required all your resources.

Now, to be fair, we have hard mode now, and that helps a lot. We only saw normal mode GWEN over the weekend, and judging by normal mode in the other campaigns, it SHOULD be easy enough to beat blindfolded. Think of all the mending wammos who'd be in trouble otherwise!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I support you playing your way, but you dictating to me how I play is just not cool.

By the same token, I'm fine with you being terrible at the game, but trying to dumb down everything because of it is not cool.

trobinson97 · Aug 29, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The "if you think it's overpowered, then don't use it" arguement bothers me. Most players good enough to steamroll everything in PvE are perfectionists. They got that way by continually optimizing builds and strategies. It's like saying "If you're killing every team you play in soccer, break your shin before the game". You certainly could break your shin or take a crappy skillbar, but it would be a heck of a lot more fun if there was a challenge that required all your resources.

Yeah because comparing making a video game challenging to intentionally breaking your leg in REAL LIFE for a "challenge' is perfectly valid. Wow. I can pretty much guarantee you that any athlete who dominates his/her competition in his/her sport isn't going to be asking a commissioner (or whatever head of that athletic league) to make things harder for them. Also, once a team wins the championship, they can't flip a switch to do it all again in Hard Mode. The "if you think it's overpowered, then don't use it" argument "bothers" you so you chose to reply with that? It is to laugh.

Quote:

By the same token, I'm fine with you being terrible at the game, but trying to dumb down everything because of it is not cool.

You had nothing else, so you desperately reached, and ultimately failed.

TabascoSauce · Aug 29, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Strangelove, I like your soccer analogy, mostly because it does not really apply.

The bot soccer teams in PvE are not like human players who adapt or learn from you, in fact they cannot adapt or learn at all. It would be better stated that the opposing bot soccer teams were actually automatons with a licking leg that move in definitive patterns and continually kick. Not necessarily tough to beat when you figure out their patterns, right?

That sort of ruins your analogy. They do not have feelings, are totally predictable, and are meant in the terms of the game space to provide a challenge but ultimately lose. We as players are meant to win the game. Actual soccer tournament analogies are better suited to PvP.

Regardless, if you personally steamroll everything in PvE then good for you. That does not affect me in the slightest, because we are not in a race or competition.

I think you have the attitude you do because of your situation and circumstances. Got any young nephews or nieces? Get them the game, and see if they need any help.

That will educate you more eloquently than I can. Guild Wars should be suited for a variety of gamestyles, not just yours or mine.

Making everything DOA hard would turn off a lot of players. Making everything pre-searing easy would do the same. Every time I see someone post anything about the game needing to be harder, I can safely assume that they are simply acting in their own interests and not mine. I'll post right back that it is a bad idea.

We are back to the same old topic. The PvE skills were announced last May that they would be better than standard skills. This is not a surprise. And as said before, you are not required to grind for effectiveness or even use them if they subtract from your game experience.

On that note, if they make your game experience easier, and that makes you sad or mad, then I can assure you that there is someone else who is glad to see them.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Dr Strangelove · Aug 29, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Strangelove, I like your soccer analogy, mostly because it does not really apply.

The bot soccer teams in PvE are not like human players who adapt or learn from you, in fact they cannot adapt or learn at all. It would be better stated that the opposing bot soccer teams were actually automatons with a licking leg that move in definitive patterns and continually kick. Not necessarily tough to beat when you figure out their patterns, right?

Yes, I am aware that there are not soccer playing robots, thank you. The point was that you don't see Arsenal showing up at my Tuesday night pickup game and beating my team 60-0, because it's not fun for them to play if there's no challenge. If they did show up at my lame pickup game, they would want to find a team that could challenge them, not play blindfolded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

That sort of ruins your analogy. They do not have feelings, are totally predictable, and are meant in the terms of the game space to provide a challenge but ultimately lose. We as players are meant to win the game. Actual soccer tournament analogies are better suited to PvP.

Since you're hung up on the idea that soccer is PvP, go ahead pretend all the players are robots. The point still stands that if something you do for fun is too easy to the point that it becomes less fun, you increase the challenge, not cripple yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Guild Wars should be suited for a variety of gamestyles, not just yours or mine.

Of course it should, in fact, that's exactly my point. A lot of players like myself enjoy maximizing our skills and builds in order to overcome really hard stuff. That's why hard mode exists. A lot of people like monsters that die like Indians with smallpox. That's why there's normal mode. I'm just wary of overpowered junk for the cow tipping crowd leaking over into the game for players who like a challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

We are back to the same old topic. The PvE skills were announced last May that they would be better than standard skills. This is not a surprise. And as said before, you are not required to grind for effectiveness or even use them if they subtract from your game experience.

On that note, if they make your game experience easier, and that makes you sad or mad, then I can assure you that there is someone else who is glad to see them.

I think the key thing is making the game experience more fun, not easier. The basic concept behind the PvE skills is that some things that are imbalanced in PvP are fine in PvE. To take a skill at random, (read: the only one I can remember right now) Brawling Headbutt is fine for PvE. It's a non-elite unconditional knockdown for low adrenaline, and it isn't countered by blind or block. In PvP, it would be retarded, but in PvE, single target knockdowns aren't as big an issue, so it's probably ok. On the other hand, critical agility was stupidly overpowered in PvE before it was confined to assassins.

To be honest, I don't know why there's a problem here. You want your game fairly easy, and don't want the hard mode crowd screwing that up. That's fine, you have a whole game for that. I want my game challenging, and don't want bad players getting it dumbed down. That should be fine too, that's why hard mode exists. Let's just be careful about blurring the lines, eh?

Red Sonya · Aug 29, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

The first one I have is no more than two of the same henchman. Seeing people with three searing flames eles, them being a searing flame ele, and taking Cynn seems to be FAR too overpowered to me.

You can go take a flying leap with that suggestion. You don't have to use the setup so why care what others do as far as how they choose to play with their heroes/henchies? Who died and left you an Imp?

TyrianFury · Aug 30, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Can't people in this thread just enjoy the game when it is released on Friday. Play quests, do missions or dungeons. Enjoy the story, play the dam game and stop crying about titles, skills etc. There are far more important things in life to worry about lol.

Vnewbie · Aug 30, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

*points at Engel* He started this! If anything nerf Engel :P (jk).

Having said that, keep in mind that the preview weekend also gives an oppourtunity for the devs to have a semi-beta test. So threads like these are OK. Not saying that an ongoing flame war is good...just saying that the title should've been something like "What do you think of the new stuff?" instead of "What shall we nerf?"

Yichi · Aug 30, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

Actually for alot of the nerfs it WAS because of pvp. N/Mo in pvp nerf N/Rt in pvp nerf. BoA in pvp nerf thats just 3 examples

Yes because leaving something overpowered in the only competitive aspect of the game so you can farm easier makes complete sense...

TabascoSauce · Aug 30, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

blah blah blah

Your continued statements lead me to believe that you'd like to see the PvE skills nerfed, since you are making value judgements on their suitability - "Brawling headbutt is fine". Uh, of course it is fine.

But you're in the wrong here.

Look, between the two of us as far as arguments, a quick recap for those who missed the start. You are saying that the game is too easy and needs to be toughened up so you can have more fun. This will affect everyone. Yes, everyone. Every player. Yeah. Hoo-dee-doo, everybody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The point still stands that if something you do for fun is too easy to the point that it becomes less fun, you increase the challenge, not cripple yourself.

Right. What I am saying is that players can control the difficulty themselves, and contain changes to the game space to their own environment, by choosing to not use these skills, wear armor, have less than maxxed weapons, etc. That affects you, you, you, and only you. Not me, not Yichi, not trobinson. Just you. Hoo-ah.

So, you think that these skills will do what? Oh yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I'm just wary of overpowered junk for the cow tipping crowd leaking over into the game for players who like a challenge.

What, is trobinson there holding a gun to your head forcing you to use these overpowered junk skills?

There is no "leaking" here. You are making the choice to make your gameplay easier, and you are making a flawed argument that there is no other way to play like "crippling yourself". That needs a whole paragraph to explain, in case you do not grasp it yet.

Dood, there are as many ways to play any game as you can possibly imagine. Google for the 14 minute complete Morrowind video. There are many of them, I think even a seven minute one, but the 14 minute one specifically is more entertaining. That is an optimal plan that uses immediate theft as a process to make potions to blow your stats sky-high, and allow you to fly at 200 miles an hour to zip right to the bad guy and whomp him as fast as possible. Game over. Victory.

So you tell me that when I play the game, and savor 50 hours of rich gameplay cause I like that game, that I am "crippling myself" for not using that method of easy victory? By exploiting the system to get crazy powerful? At any time, I could have gone wacky with the potions and had invincible stats, and I choose not to. This is exactly the position you are stating that you are in, and you want to alter the game for everyone? That would be like removing potions from Morrowind because they can be exploited. Whatever. It is not an on or off button, so stop portraying it as such. You have no right to try and impose, for selfish reasons, your own style of gameplay so you can feel like you are having more fun.

The gameplay experience is a spectrum, and while it is hardcoded to appeal to a mass of gamers and not just yourself, your judgement of it being not fun is applicable to you and you alone, and you have the option of increasing your fun by making the game harder for you, if that is what your true desire is. So get cracking, optimize your fun, and leave my fun alone.

Just enjoy the game. Go play hard mode, it was designed for you.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

wilebill · Aug 30, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Why is the one of the main forms of entertainment in online gaming begging for nerfs?

Not just in GW, but in World of Warcraft, EVE Online, etc, the forums are awash with pleas for nerfs of one sort or another.

Why are there not pleas for enhancements instead? If PvE skills are too strong in someone's estimation, then why not ask for more challenging monsters and more of them? Maybe because it is easier to be negative than positive?

Whatever the reason, it is the pleas for nerfs that you hear. Perhaps this is because nerfing is the chief form of entertainment for many players. A form of global griefing?

Myself, I think we should all leave skill balancing to the developers who probably know more about it than we do.

Well99 · Aug 30, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

I have no problem with someone controlling how I play the game.As soon as you send me a certified money order for the cost of the games I paid for I will get right on it.Dont forget the taxes I had to pay on the game.
Thanks

Well99 · Aug 30, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

Why is the one of the main forms of entertainment in online gaming begging for nerfs?

Not just in GW, but in World of Warcraft, EVE Online, etc, the forums are awash with pleas for nerfs of one sort or another.

Why are there not pleas for enhancements instead? If PvE skills are too strong in someone's estimation, then why not ask for more challenging monsters and more of them? Maybe because it is easier to be negative than positive?

Whatever the reason, it is the pleas for nerfs that you hear. Perhaps this is because nerfing is the chief form of entertainment for many players. A form of global griefing?

Myself, I think we should all leave skill balancing to the developers who probably know more about it than we do.

Some people have control issues.Maybe they cant control their own lives so they feel the need to control others.That is why they always push nerfs...opps I mean balance in a game.I knew that ACME home psychology course would come in handy.

wilebill · Aug 30, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

ACME home psychology ... made a note of that ... I'll sign up today!

Navaros · Aug 30, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I want my game challenging, and don't want bad players getting it dumbed down. That should be fine too, that's why hard mode exists. Let's just be careful about blurring the lines, eh?

The thing is, GW games in normal mode are never going to provide any sort of challenge to a good player who knows how to play properly and has proper skillbars equipped, regardless of PVE-only skills existing or not. A good player can easily steamroll any area of normal mode in any GW game with Heroes/Hench. Therefore for a player who knows what he is doing, it can't be "dumbed-down" any more or made easier than it already is.

The only thing PVE-only skills do is add some fun to the game with new ways to play the game, which is gonna be steamrolled either way; with or without PVE-only skills.

I find that extremely ironic; that those who complain about PVE-only skills being powerful think that normal mode is "challenging" without PVE-only skills when in actuality, it's not. It goes to show that it's not really "the good players" who are complaining about PVE-only skills. Quite the opposite.

Of course, complainers like the ones in this thread already succeeded in getting the fun of PVE-only skills nerfed by getting PVE-only skills gimped to 3 at a time prior to EOTN's release. Isn't that enough of gimping everyone else's fun?

freekedoutfish · Aug 30, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Ok so it didnt seem to post my reply the first time, so here we go again!

GWEN isnt even released yet, and what we got to see was a preview and about 5-10% of the entire content. To talk about nerfing things is just rediculious.

To then talk about nerfing PvE only skills is also just rediculious. They are intended to be powerfull because they are PvE only.

The non profession specific PvE skills in GWEN cannot be used in PvP, so there is absolutely no reason to nerf them. Especially not to talk about nerfing them before we have seen the whole of GWEN.

There is likely to be very powerfull creatures and content in GWEN that we havent even seen, and these overpowered skills are intended to counter-act them.

This really does show the mentality of players in GWs when they talk about changing skills and spells, before the actual game has been released and before anyone has even completed it.

As for the new profession skills that have been added. From the ones I saw from being an elemental, non were especially over-powered and needed nerfed at all.

We have to wait until the game has been out for a good few months, and a good hand full of people have completed the game and have experience of how it works, before we talk about nerfing!!!

GWEN is intended as high end content and you need powerfull skills/spells to move through it! It just makes sense!

Its like saying we should change the reciepy for a new kind of meal, after just tasting one of the ingrediants and assuming the entire thing needs changed.

There isnt a player in existance at this time (who isnt Anet staff), who is experienced enough in playing GWEN to even comment on what needs nerfed and what doesnt. We just have no way of knowing how GWEN will play out and what will make it easier or harder.

Crom The Pale · Aug 31, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Well the Nerf Stick came and the skill I was loving got hammered....

Great work A-net, not even out of the box and you blew away my biggest hopes.....